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05 February 2007 @ 09:16 am
Type Interactions #5: INTJ-INTP [archived]  
While it is wonderful to sit around and discuss how amazing we INTJs are, there are other types in the world and we generally have to deal with them more than with fellow INTJs. As a result I will be making weekly posts (as long as there is a good response) about how INTJs interact with others to get feedback on the experiences we INTJs have had with other types and how we've learned to deal with them successfully. I'll be posting this series every Monday featuring a new quasi-randomly-selected personality type. Today's interaction was requested by e_burke. (Yes, I do take requests.)

Type Interactions #5: INTJ-INTP


I really like INTPs. My husband and longest held friend are both INTPs. Many of my other meat-space and lj friends are also INTPs. I find them easy to communicate with (we are all NTs), outwardly calm and stable (inward may be a different story), highy logical and consistent (due to model building), knowledgable (they go into depth in the areas that matter to them and are careful about accuracy and correctness of data), intelligent (at least all the ones I've met are and a few surveys I've seen rate them as having higher than average intelligence on average), enthusiasm for the things that interest them (they become experts in that area), hard to insult (as long as you don't imply that they are incompetent), and creative (mad scientists, etc) with a wacky sense of humour (when you are allowed to see that side). Mature INTPs can make excellent diplomats and spys. By spies I mean that they can sit at the back of a group observing and analysing (and formulating plans) while a frontman (INTJ) holds the stage. In my experience, INTPs have a very likable front persona (they may not think so) and tend to hide their depth from casual observation. Their depth comes in the form of abstract thought, model building, and projecting into the future rather than from any deep emotional connection. For INTPs intellectal connections appear to be the equivalent of emotional connections for some other types.

On the downside, they often have terrible self-esteem issues (including anxiety, depression, self-doubt, self-blame, etc), difficulty with intrapersonal awareness (problems knowing what they are feeling and value inside), tend to get absorbed in projects such that they forget to care for themselves and/or their relationships, may have problems expressing (or even knowing) their own opinions to others (may be due to either not having an opinion, needing to ensure the validity of their opinion, or not valuing opinions), tend to live in the future (and therefore may sometimes forget that they haven't supplied context), cannot stand repetition or being asked to repeat themselves (they are worse than INTJs for this), can be perfectionists and procrastinate, they may have problems with assigning priority rankings, they need structure but instinctively resist it, their internal models of the world can be faulty (although they are willing to fix this if they discover it, accuracy being important), they may be stiff and stand-offish when faced with emotional drama (they may not know what to do with the crying thing), and they can have very bad tempers (heh... just like INTJs). I've also found that INTPs can be extra passive when they don't have a good model to work from or when they don't really care much but it is a big mistake to think that just because you can push them around that you should. When the last peice of the equation falls into place and they find themselves pushed past their boundaries they will snap back like an speeding transfer-truck.

A few tricks I've learned:

1) They tie compentancy to their self image and hence insulting (or implying an insult to) their competancy is the equivalent to telling an INTJ that her judgement can't be trusted and an NF that they are worthless and a discrace to their ideal. Try to avoid language that implies that they are personally incompetent. When confronted with a challenge like this (in an area that they are not absolutely confident in) an INTP will just shut down the conversation until they've had a chance to re-evaluate everything from first principles. This can be very frustrating to an INTJ trying to reach a goal on a schedule.

2) What I call, multi-person cognative analysis conflict resolution works really well in dealing with personal disputes. Take a step back, depersonalize the situation, and analyse it in the third person as a joint project. (This method can drive NFs nuts.) INTPs may not be aware that they are having emotions or value clashes until everything blows up. Using phrasing like "I've noticed that you are doing [describe behaviours in emotionally neutral language] and I've noticed that in the past when you did this it meant that you [felt X or were having problem Y]. Is that what is happening now?" followed by stepping back to give them space to look at their model. This works well in my experience. It neutrally alerts them to a problem, opens dialog, and gives them time/space to calm down and deal with the problem rationally (their prefered method).

3) Tell them what you want. This is a simple idea that nobody seems to use. INTPs that I've dealt with have been relieved when I gave them simple instructions on how to achieve desired results. Example: I said this to my husband, "I like flowers. Always having fresh flowers on the table makes me feel happy and loved." He gave me fresh flowers every two weeks for over two years. The important part of this method is to follow through with the consequences. When he gave me flowers I thanked him and obviously showed (or said) that I was happy and felt loved. (Again, this method can drive NFs nuts as it isn't "special" enough. It works on INFPs if you can convince them that it makes you feel good. It may be hard to convince them.) This method works for negative consequences as well. INTPs may not want to be tied down but they do appreciate consistancy in others... it makes you easier to model.

4) Find a non-threatening way to tell them that they have skipped ahead and missed telling you a step or context. My husband and I use the phrase "You've gone off to visit the cows." Sometimes the goal and endpoint aren't the most important thing to an INTP. While the INTJ is focused and determined to march to the end of the road with only minimal concern for what is "out there", the INTP has discovered a herd of rare bovines and has merrily run off to examine them. The INTJs ultimate goal may be "just something" (and not even an interesting something) to the INTP. Get used to this. You can't turn them into an INTJ, don't try. Let them have their time then gently tell them that they have run off to visit the cows. Look at what they bring back. Sometimes it IS more important and interesting than the stated goal.

5) Their internal models are all important to them but they aren't set in stone. If it isn't accurate, they will fix it. If it isn't comprehensive enough, they will expand it. More often an INTP will be too complete rather than corner cutting. This means that processing time can sometimes be slow. They have to test new data against the model. Be patient. Give them time. It is worth it. If for some unfortunate reason you have to hack the system go in with plenty of proof all laid out logically and take into account their reasoning. In my experience INTPs rarely get their basic facts and observations wrong but their assumptions may have problems. The ones I know are eager to debug the system but may have problems because they are part of the system and the subjective bits are hard for them.

That is enough for now. (Please excuse my spelling. I'm tired.)

What are your experiences with INTPs? Personal? Work?
How can INTJs deal effectively with INTPs?
What are the problem areas between INTJs and INTPs?
What makes INTJ-INTP interactions/relationships worth while?

Type Interactions #1: INTJ-ISTP
Type Interactions #2: INTJ-ENFP
Type Interactions #3: INTJ-ISFJ
Type Interactions #4: INTJ-INFP
 
 
Kai Hamutirisenphoenixkai on February 5th, 2007 04:03 pm (UTC)
I find that the INTPs I've interacted with are almost exactly the same as we INTJs. Except lazier, messier, and with terrible self-confidence.

Whether they're older than me or not, I've always looked at INTPs as younger siblings. Their personalities are similar enough to my own, but seemingly less mature.

I tend to get along very well with INTPs, so long as I don't really have to depend on them for anything other than hanging out or having an intelligent conversation. Getting an INTP to fill a dishwasher is like getting an elephant to ride a unicycle.

That said, though they're not the most dependable of people, they're quite fun most of the time, and I find they usually have an easier time dealing with other MBTI types (especially extroverts) than I do.
ex_greymaide85 on February 5th, 2007 09:07 pm (UTC)
Haha! My thoughts exactly, almost verbatim!
(no subject) - jtmulc on February 6th, 2007 12:37 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - lilwing123 on February 12th, 2007 06:16 am (UTC) (Expand)
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(no subject) - lilwing123 on February 17th, 2007 08:13 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ms_danson on February 17th, 2007 10:16 pm (UTC) (Expand)
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(no subject) - Jeremy McCandlish on January 6th, 2011 11:47 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - pstscrpt on May 16th, 2007 01:20 am (UTC) (Expand)
INTP/INTJ relations. - threadbare_coat on January 18th, 2009 04:57 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: INTP/INTJ relations. - Jeremy McCandlish on January 6th, 2011 11:54 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Mollywulfmadchen on February 5th, 2007 04:27 pm (UTC)
My good friend (and probable grad school roommate) Bob is an INTP. I call him "mad scientist Bob" because that stereotype fits remarkably well- right down to the turn-of-the-century German Chemist hair. Mainly I'm awed at how easily he handles regular social interaction- the bit about having an engaging/likeable front persona is dead on- and he's usually the one that encourages me to come out of my cave.
Stephensamhaine on February 5th, 2007 04:32 pm (UTC)
My roommate of the last year is an INTP. Some of the things I've learned from him. I'm not sure if each of these is a purely INTP thing:

He's very conflict averse, even moreso than I am, if it would potentially upset a mostly benign situation. He will only initiate a conflict if it's very important to him and, generally, he thinks others in the group will back him up. At that point, he has no problem. However, if starting a conflict would add extra drama to the group dynamics, he'll avoid it. Some of my extrovert friends pointed out that they thought he had no problem with a current situation that I wound up initiating the conflict on; he had complained to me privately about the situation, but was willing to put out a pleasant exterior rather than cause drama.

With that in mind, I've started to pay attention to more subtle cues to determine if he's unhappy with a situation that we might not be allied on. If it's annoying him, but not seriously hurting him, he probably won't say anything on his own to resolve the issue.

I've gotten into the habit of trying to stimulate conversation when I'm in a group of two in a closed situation, such as a long car ride. I suspect some of my friends are a bit intimidated about trying to have a one on one conversation with me, so I try to make the silences less awkward. With my roommate, I only actually need to talk when I have something to say; both of us are perfectly content to live inside our heads if there's nothing pertinent to discuss.

The P/J divide is a constant source of amusement for him. I had a discussion with him this weekend about the value of a crockpot; I put ingredients in, and at a certain time I take out dinner. He doesn't understand arranging food that far in advance. I find it's worthwhile to mention something to him, make a set of plans that will work whether or not he's involved, and then ask him right before he's needed whether he intends to be involved. At least, unlike some of the other Ps in my life, he's aware of the utility of having someone with a plan and will follow his role without needless dawdling if he's interested in the result. For example, he may only start getting ready to go when I tell him we're about to head out, but he'll be in the car at the right time if I stress that it's important.
Jeroen J.-W. Tiggelmanjeroentiggelman on February 5th, 2007 06:19 pm (UTC)
My longest friendship is with an INTP (thirteen years or so now). We are about the same age and from a similar background (oldest/only child, mathematics, computers, Usenet, metal, ...). I think I tend to speak up sooner, on the other hand I won't go on trips as easily. Overall, we understand each other very well.
Janne: Enigmajanne on February 5th, 2007 09:09 pm (UTC)
The one thing that maddens me about (what few) INTPs I know is that I can't get a straight answer out of them on anything -- it's like pulling teeth at times. And even if I do get an answer they'll most likely have changed their minds by the next time I talk to them.

That being said, I think I'm pretty close to INTP myself at times. My inner slob coming out under stress, perhaps :)
Ms. Dansonms_danson on February 5th, 2007 10:15 pm (UTC)
Ironically my husband is the neat freak. He doesn't plan to be neat, he just does it as he sees it.
(no subject) - mellyjc on February 5th, 2007 11:38 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - maskedconfessor on February 6th, 2007 07:35 am (UTC) (Expand)
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(no subject) - Jeremy McCandlish on January 6th, 2011 11:58 pm (UTC) (Expand)
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(Deleted comment)
Mellyamellyjc on February 5th, 2007 11:41 pm (UTC)
Man, those complaints are spot on with my fiance!

Our biggest disagreement-starter right now is money, because I'm tight and like to know where it all is. He, on the other hand, doesn't know, and doesn't care to know. I keep having to ask him to keep track, or at least tell me what the numbers are so I can keep track...but he tries to keep it to himself so it doesn't stress me out...which naturally has the opposite reaction.
(no subject) - lilwing123 on February 12th, 2007 06:28 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - mellyjc on February 12th, 2007 06:31 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - lilwing123 on February 17th, 2007 08:24 pm (UTC) (Expand)
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Mellyamellyjc on February 5th, 2007 11:54 pm (UTC)
This was the one I was waiting for. Thanks :) Sounds very accurate from my experience, as well.

My fiance is INTP. Our J/P difference has been very complementary. He's teaching me to loosen up a bit, enjoy spontaneity and have fun, and I'm teaching him to be more responsible. We understand each other well and have similar senses of humor, so we're laughing or having fun nearly all the time.

My INTP is perhaps unusual in that he knows how to handle the crying thing. He still bottles up his emotions, but he's actually unique in my life in that he's the one person I feel comfortable showing my bare emotions. He understands that I just need an armpit to curl up and cry in.

He definitely has a temper, though, and it fits well with everything else you said- if I get after him for not being responsible about something, the repetition and what he perceives as a personal attack set him off and he shuts down. The last time this came up his anger response (verbal) was so extreme it was very obvious he didn't mean it, and rather than setting off my anger, I went to my "therapy place" and it all just made sense. His attempt was quite admirable but his assumption was wrong- I told him so and it's seemed to have a more successful impact than past discussions on the same issue.

INterestingly the cow bit also seems true of my mom, who is not an INTP- I just thought it was a Taurus thing (they are both Taureans).
Eamon Burkee_burke on February 6th, 2007 06:13 pm (UTC)
Funny, my girlfriend is similar to your fiance, in the emotional category. She's far more ok with crying, fear, etc than I am, but she's also EASILY swallowed by it. Her temper is raging crazy, but I grew up in an Irish household, so it's not that bad.
guhl: Purple Darkstarof_earendil on February 6th, 2007 12:04 am (UTC)
Two of my friends are an INTP, I find that they are not very different from INTJ except for some of the organization and confindence. One of them and I have little joke fights about which type is better, calling the other a "dumb INTP" or an "illogical INTJ".

I tend feel more comfortable around them then any other type because we see the same way most of the time.

They only problem to exists is the planning, organization area. The ones I know are laid back when it comes to planning events like when to do work and study. They lack some organization.
Ms. Dansonms_danson on February 7th, 2007 02:31 pm (UTC)
It may be that our iN-eT speaks well to their iT-eN functions. We get to the same place via different routes and speak similar "languages".
Loki: hobbestricstmr on February 6th, 2007 02:56 pm (UTC)
2 data points... at least.. part 1
First a relevant aside...

All of the INTP's that I know are male... and apparently the vast majority of the ones described on here (fiance's, husbands, etc..) are male.

How interesting. While we have what appears to me to be an even number of female INTJ's... we don't seem to have equal number of female INTP's to look at for our observations. Could this be due to societal pressures that often let boys just "play/explore" long after women are trained to buckle down and learn all of these rules about the world?

I wonder...

Anyway..
1. My INTP friend K--is married to an ESFJ, his opposite. K is a graphic designer/photoshop expert who works with photographs to perfect them for catalogs and such things. He also does database programming. He is very political, considers himself and anarchist/libertarian (but more of the hippie than capitalist type of libertarian), and is noticably paranoid in the sense that he always has a new conspiracy theory to tell me about. He works hard at what he does and will do massive amounts of "repair" or building around his house but, from all I hear, is absolutely terrible at doing normal housework type stuff. I have great conversations with him whenever I get the chance, but we do tend to disagree. Not surprisingly, he tends to leave his beliefs more in the abstract and to justify them through "logical arguments"--but I tend to shoot a lot of those down with concrete historical/current events examples that basically say.. "yes, I know that would be the logical outcome, but that's not what actually happened..." Although I know that we INTJ's sometimes tend to have a problem when people "don't make sense" i have the impression that INTP's have a bigger problem with this.. I can also say that K and his ESFJ wife tend to have massive communication problems. I've seen him try to communicate with her, but they often just seem to be coming from such totally different places, that they automatically push each other's buttons. I find this somewhat interesting since I'm also paired with an opposite type (ESFP), and rather than pushing our buttons, we complement each other..

2. Second INTP is J--who I know a lot less well. I don't have a confirmation that he is INTP, but he fits it perfectly, and his girlfriend confirmed it for me also in her view. J is quite introverted, with a totally off the wall dark sense of humor. He is a tech-freak--especially with regard to musical equipment--which comprises just about all of his material possesions except for a bed and a computer (which is also a piece of musical equipment for him.). J's way of thinking sometimes comes from such interesting directions that it totally catches me offguard--sort of like he is kinda perpetually on acid, except that I know that he doesn't do any drugs at all. It's hard to get to know J or to get him to open up.. but I do know that he has some deep feelings, because you can just see them in the puppy-dog like expressions he has for his girlfriend (who's an INFP).

Demonsquirreldmnsqrl on February 7th, 2007 07:30 pm (UTC)
Re: 2 data points... at least.. part 1
*wave*

I'm a female INTP if anyone is looking for more observation-fodder
Re: 2 data points... at least.. part 1 - lilwing123 on February 19th, 2007 04:47 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: 2 data points... at least.. part 1 - dmnsqrl on February 19th, 2007 05:19 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: 2 data points... at least.. part 1 - lilwing123 on February 21st, 2007 03:18 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: 2 data points... at least.. part 1 - dmnsqrl on February 21st, 2007 03:34 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: 2 data points... at least.. part 1 - lilwing123 on February 21st, 2007 03:42 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: 2 data points... at least.. part 1 - pstscrpt on May 16th, 2007 02:01 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: 2 data points... at least.. part 1 - Chris Rosenberger on August 25th, 2011 01:57 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: 2 data points... at least.. part 1 - quantumkitty on February 7th, 2007 08:30 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: 2 data points... at least.. part 1 - lilwing123 on February 19th, 2007 04:50 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: 2 data points... at least.. part 1 - quantumkitty on February 19th, 2007 05:44 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: 2 data points... at least.. part 1 - mellyjc on February 19th, 2007 07:53 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: 2 data points... at least.. part 1 - lilwing123 on February 21st, 2007 03:39 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: 2 data points... at least.. part 1 - siderea on February 21st, 2007 09:02 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: 2 data points... at least.. part 1 - lilwing123 on February 21st, 2007 03:33 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: 2 data points... at least.. part 1 - quantumkitty on February 21st, 2007 04:00 am (UTC) (Expand)
Loki: mr. gonetricstmr on February 6th, 2007 02:57 pm (UTC)
2 data points... at least.. part 2
Overall conclusions:
How to deal with INTP's--get into conversations with them. They seem to be very good at carrying on complex multi-layered dialogues about complex subjects better than any other types (besides us, of course! ;) ) They also can complement us, in my experience, by finding out core assumptions/laws fairly quickly, while also being open to tons of possible ideas whereas we tend to settle down to a narrower set more quickly. To be effective--find out what they like to do--and if it involves some theoretical work--put them towards that goal (even though we could also do it) and take more charge of working out details and pushing the project along, since they do not seem to be nearly as good at that..

Problem areas--I haven't really ever found any. I'm not a neat-nik.. so the oft-mentioned messyness of INTP's doesn't really bother me. I do clean a bunch.. but I do it out of a sense of wanting to re-establish some order before a new project, rather than requiring it all the time.

Worth-while stuff?--the conversations.. I have the least amount of difficulty conversing about high-level political/economic/grand schemes for unifying the world under my domination type stuff and enjoy this thoroughly... I haven't found INTP's to be that neurotic.. but rather.. just more likely to be a little off in terms of how they see the world.. which I appreciate.
Ms. Dansonms_danson on February 7th, 2007 02:25 pm (UTC)
Re: 2 data points... at least.. part 2
Conversations make EVERYTHING worth it.
Eamon Burkee_burke on February 6th, 2007 06:10 pm (UTC)
What are your experiences with INTPs? Personal? Work? I am dating one(have been for over two years), and had a very good friend of mine who was an INTP.

How can INTJs deal effectively with INTPs? Their self-confidence is not near that of an INTJ, this is their primary difference, I find, and giving them plenty of respect and assurance of trust is important. Also, they will love and respect anyone who is strong enough to make them do what is good for them, even when they dont' want to.

What are the problem areas between INTJs and INTPs? Emotional starvation. The INT world is not fuzzy and warm. It's also very hard to talk each other about really important, or touchy subjects.

What makes INTJ-INTP interactions/relationships worth while? I think I'd get bored with any other girl. She's alot of work, but she's so much fun and I just can't do without the logical understanding that she provides. She's my best friend as well as my girlfriend.
tungoltungol on February 6th, 2007 10:39 pm (UTC)
Hi, INTP (most likely) here. I found the post and comments quite interesting, though I don't have much of content to say. (If I knew I had INTJ friends, I might have some comments on the topic from the other side, but I'm not very type-aware and none of my friends have declared INTJness to me, so I don't.)

Also, a nitpicky thing: In the title of the post, you call it Type Interactions #5, but in the body of the post, it says Type Interactions #4
Ms. Dansonms_danson on February 7th, 2007 02:24 pm (UTC)
Fixed. Cut and paste error.
Dr. (Sir) Nicodemus Flemingnapoleonofcrime on February 7th, 2007 09:44 am (UTC)
Now I'm confused. Am I an INTP with INTJ traits, or an INTJ with INTP traits?

One of the few buttons of mine that a customer is capable of pushing is implying (or stating!) that I do not know what I am doing. I have a temper, but aside from this one button I usually manage to check it.

I am terrible at managing my finances. My home is messy, aside from the bookshelf and DVD rack. I have difficulty determining what my goals are. I have trouble with strong emotional displays. I procrastinate to the point of absurdity. I have self-esteem issues. I do not like to lead, yet enjoy deference.

Yet, my work-space is very organized, and I have developed a system for completing most tasks efficiently. I tend to declare my opinions when I find them to be well-reasoned. I can't stand it when people are blatantly, obviously wrong right in front of me. I prefer to plan social engagements ahead, but only if it involves something which I consider time-sensitive, like purchasing plane or movie tickets, or a vacation where I will be unable to see and do everything I want. Otherwise, I'm perfectly happy with spontaneous "hanging out" style activities. I tend to arrive early at events; too early, really.

Stupid 50/50 J/P breakdown.
Ms. Dansonms_danson on February 7th, 2007 02:24 pm (UTC)
My husband describes it as "getting to the same place by different routes".
(no subject) - ms_danson on February 7th, 2007 02:25 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - _luaineach on February 19th, 2007 08:57 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - napoleonofcrime on February 20th, 2007 04:07 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - kelism on May 18th, 2007 03:21 pm (UTC) (Expand)
polly_poppins on February 8th, 2007 10:03 pm (UTC)
I heart my INTP
I'm married to an INTP. The major sticking point in our relationship, and it's actually pretty minor, is precise communication. I'll grab whatever word happens to be handy when I'm trying to get to the point (floor instead of ground, car instead of truck, dog instead of lion) and this can really derail a conversation. We either have to stop and sort the word out or my INTP corrects me, which is annoying because if he knew what I was talking about and he was the only person I was talking to, then there was no reason to interrupt me to make a correction.

Also, for a long time if my INTP said we should go to, say, Tokyo, and I agreed, I started making calls to book air travel. By the time I came back to him with a choice of hotels, he'd forgotten the conversation. Now I ask: are we actually going to Tokyo? This saves some disappointment on my end but can throw a wet blanket on his fun because I have no interest in having a conversation about visiting Tokyo unless I'm going there.

On the other hand, my INTP stays much calmer than I do and seems to have more patience for interruptions. And, if I want to know the merits of one consumer product over another, I can get him to research it. After a few days and I check in to see where he's at. By then he'll have narrowed the field down to three almost perfect choices and I can jump in and make the final decision.
Mellyamellyjc on February 12th, 2007 06:42 am (UTC)
Re: I heart my INTP
This is so different from my experience. I'm not sure what my boss is, but it irks the heck out of me when she decides to change information willy nilly in a conversation. Does it really matterin most cases? No. But I'm a perfectionist and see her inaccuracies as carelessness (rather embarrassing when she emails clients by the wrong name, for example). It damages our corporate image.

However, I may care more than I normally would because she can make careless mistakes like that with no repercussions, yet I get reprimanded for the stupidest things..like doing something my own way rather than hers, even if it's more efficient.

My INTP has to have a vested interest in order to research something. Interruptions don't phase him because he's so sucked into what he's doing. I can literallly go streaking across the room yelling and he won't even turn and look. However when it comes ot research...he's great with stuff in his field, I can't pry him away. But could I get him to research vacuums? Nope.
Re: I heart my INTP - dmnsqrl on February 28th, 2007 07:02 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: I heart my INTP - kelism on May 18th, 2007 03:16 pm (UTC) (Expand)
quitemercurial on March 5th, 2007 08:11 pm (UTC)
Ah, useful advice. :] Thanks for thoe five points.

One of my best friends is an INTP...or, at least, we're pretty sure she is. She's taken the tests on similarminds.com and researched (as have I) on the Internet, but she's been given results of at least three, possibly four, types, several times. But, I am, at least, positive she's an INTP. Your post helps me to confirm my claim. I'm going to show her this whole thing and see what she thinks.

Anyway, so far as I can tell, my relationship with Kimberley is fairly rewarding. We have enough in common that we could form a friendship and build on it, and even when we're not in contact for extended periods of time (as we're chiefly online friends, seeing as she lives way up North), we somehow manage to stay close. The status of our relationship is stable, something I think both of us like, prefer, and tend to require.

I've noticed she can have issues with communication. She takes a long time to think about what she wants to say, when it comes to private, emotional, mental, familial, &c. affairs. And, even when she takes the time to think about it seriously, her conversational output is not usually as great as other people's probably are, including even my own sometimes. I'm positive she understands me, and she can feel how things are and what's going on, but I think she has trouble shoving in all these abstractions and reactions into a concrete, verbal form. Luckily for the two of us, we both tend to understand what the other is saying or means, even if we say something that is not precise or if our replies seem too short to get information from; and, that kind of natural understanding helps bind us to one another, I believe.
quitemercurial on March 5th, 2007 08:11 pm (UTC)
No offense to her, but she doesn't strike one as a person who is all that intelligent; nevertheless, I do believe in her intelligence and her capacity for it. I believe if she works on her communication skills, she'll come across as a more intelligent being to others. I can tell she has an aptitude for comprehension, and her memory can be utilized far easier than others with theirs. She also has some streak of curiosity in her that prompts her to seek information and learn, which I believe is the case when it comes to her astronomy and chemistry (things she likes to read about for fun, something I find a bit eccentric but charming).

I won't go into detail on it, since both she and I consider these quite private matters, but there are emotional areas in which she definitely needs work. She takes issue with handling emotions somehow. Maybe that's not the right way to say it. It's just ... she can get really overwhelmed with her emotions, and it's not the easiest thing to cope with them in an efficient matter. Granted, I believe her problems go beyond the typical INTP problems, and that takes outside help. I won't speak further on the matter.

There is also her more extroverted side. She does, indeed, manage better with others when it comes to socializing or generally dealing with people. In fact, she's told me, when she was younger, she had this "Look at me, look at me!" attitude, and to a small extent, she still does. (This probably also tends to mask her intellectual abilities from others, but I am not fooled.) But, because of this dash of extroversion, she seems to get along better with people, or at least doesn't get bothered by them as I do. Whereas I get annoyed at excessive and needless socializing, almost no matter what the context or person, she has less to complain about. I find that quite useful because, to an extent, she complements and balances me; and, I can "use" (I hate using that word with someone such as she!) this to my advantage, should my own type fail me in some situation or other.

Now, I'm only going on one [confirmed, to my satisfaction, anyway] experience, but it seems to me that, generally speaking, INTJs and INTPs get along well. INTPs may come across as a bit eccentric or "different" or whatever one wants to call it, but it's not to the point that it's always undesirable or causes major problems between the two types. The fact that we already share the INT helps smoothen out the rough patches.
(no subject) - quitemercurial on March 5th, 2007 08:12 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - dimension_view on February 15th, 2008 03:10 pm (UTC) (Expand)
david_1214 on March 14th, 2007 02:07 am (UTC)
The main 'holistic' difference between the INTJs and INTPs is the interaction of the T and N funtion. The INTJ will tend to go from N to T - that is, they will 'know/intuit' something and then set about trying to communicate it with the T function. To the INTJ, T is the servant of N. In fact, I find that if the INTJ is never forced to communicate the thing(s) they intuit, that the concept remains almost solely in the N realm. As one site puts it, the INTJ introverts the N and extroverts the T.

The INTP on the other hand, is the exact opposite. To the INTP, N is the slave of T. One only intuits after thinking has taken place (usually as exhaustively as possible). So to the INTP thinking leads to ideas/possibilities (...maybe...never can have a system thought out too exhaustively) - for the INTJ ideas/possibilities lead to thinking (...maybe...its much easier to leave the 'intuition' as an unformed concept).

Anyways, thats how I ultimately differentiate between the INTJ and the INTP.
seiaihero on March 26th, 2007 11:31 pm (UTC)
Thank you for this. My J and P are very close and for awhile there when I settled down upon the incredible realization, "Hey, who the hell am I?" I researched the MBTI and at first thought INTP fit me. As my P and J are still close it is by far the characteristics of INTJ that reign over me much stronger and also repetitive testing lead to conclude that I am INTJ.

Than, having a good balence of both is not a bad thing? xD

Idea -> thinking -> Big picture and end goal-> Detail.. right. Lets do this.

Sounds about right.

"Sometimes the goal and endpoint aren't the most important thing to an INTP. While the INTJ is focused and determined to march to the end of the road with only minimal concern for what is "out there", the INTP has discovered a herd of rare bovines and has merrily run off to examine them."

I will FIND the rare herd of bovines on my way to the end and MARCH MY WAY through them SEE THEM ALL, EXAMINE THEM ALL, Conclude why the fuck they are there and march my way determined to find some definite reason why they were there ultimately reaching my end goal of KNOWING EVERYTHING. :D
feynpol on April 16th, 2007 12:52 am (UTC)
I've never known an INTP well, but the people who I've met that I thought were INTPs have usually bugged me.

Normally, I run into possible INTPs in math classes. The instructor will come in, say, "I'll have you work in pairs on a worksheet today," and I'll get paired with a possible INTP. What bugs me about this situation is that I'll quickly find solutions for the problems without consulting them, but then a flurry of questions about the first problem on the sheet will come from them, looking for details about different types of solutions possible or different approaches. I see this as a complete waste of class time and a recipe for leaving a job incomplete.

Although in a casual situation, I could see myself being acceptant of an INTP, in work situations I can't stand them.
yippie21 on October 10th, 2007 08:08 am (UTC)

As an INTP I was very amused by your perception of the situation. What you may not realize is that the INTPs likely do not care about the arbitrary problems the teacher wants you to solve. The problems are inherently uninteresting and trivial since the solutions are already known by the professor and could apparently be quickly found by an INTJ such as yourself.

If your INTP partners even noticed that you solved the problems, they were probably relived that they didn't have to waste mental energy or time on such a menial task so they could gain more generalized knowledge that they could then apply to current or future problems. That's why it's nice to have INTJs around - they can content themselves with the drudgery and let the INTPs do the real thinking.

IMHO, the professor is the one wasting class time by doling out problems for the satisfaction of the XXXJs when they could be actually teaching something useful to the XXXPs.
(no subject) - sympiesometer on December 5th, 2009 07:04 pm (UTC) (Expand)
David: Cylon love child staticd2leddy on May 16th, 2007 07:00 pm (UTC)
ms_danson:
I enjoyed this post and the subsequent comments. As usual, you shine light "below the radar".
Ms. Danson: Angelms_danson on May 21st, 2007 12:59 am (UTC)
Thank you.
ursus_of_unrv on October 1st, 2008 01:09 pm (UTC)
I co-moderate a web forum with someone who is almost assuredly an INTP.

I lover her for the most part. We communicate easily and have similar values. She is extremely intelligent with biting powers of analysis. She has odd hobbies and interests which add to her charm.

She is more laid back than I am. She gets along with people better than I do, and it seems to take a lot to offend her.

However, when it comes to actually doing work, she leaves something to be desired. I've been known to sacrifice my weekend to complete some project, whereas she feels she is going to die if she skips a weekend of free time. She will be the first to admit she is a slacker, but she doesn't seem to have a major problem with it. If there is anything about her that annoys me, it is what I perceive as this lack of work ethic.

Still, all in all, as long as you don't expect INTPs to work as hard as you do, they can be great comrades and friends.
081982081982 on October 12th, 2009 12:45 am (UTC)
Well, I went and called a man that I am slightly involved with a work a dunderhead.

It was indirect. I sent him a picture of a donut that he's rather fond of and I called the file "itsyourdonutdunderhead!"

And that was in response to him calling himself a dunderhead in jest.


I think this may have gone and pissed him off.

Is that even possible?
Kate the Greatkatethegreatest on January 27th, 2010 01:18 am (UTC)
I'm an INTP, my bf is an INTJ. This describes me pretty near perfectly. Thank you! :)
Kimaddieki on August 15th, 2010 07:20 am (UTC)
INTP Here!
My two best friends are INTJs, and I have a feeling they'd agree completely. I almost wish I had the motivation to write an INTPs version of this. I'm unsure if this is a type-wide thing, or just with me and my two friends, but INTJs are the only type that can really annoy me. They're obviously my friends, and I guess I like them and stuff, but they get under my skin like no one else can! Without even meaning it. It's amazing.
But yeah, I can see everything here, and I guess it's a tribute to being an INTP that I'm not annoyed/offended by it? Oh well. Thanks for writing this, it was a great insight into the other side. I'll have to remember all this stuff the next time I see my friends.
(Direct replies: Number 3 seems like a given to me, number 4 happens to me repeatedly every day.)
Jeremy McCandlishJeremy McCandlish on January 6th, 2011 11:00 pm (UTC)
Pretty accurate, but...
Alright, INTP speaking. Yes, I've hated every INTJ I've ever talked to for more than ten minutes. I've brought a couple INTJ's to tears just by being me. But I don't enjoy making you cry. Tactics one, four, and five here are solid gold...

Here's the thing. When people try method #2 (The one with the incomprehensible acronym,) the most common reaction is that I want to strangle them. Not surprising -- it is part of my "shadow," though I've done a lot to very successfully develop it. And when you try to tell me why I'm acting how I'm acting, you're wrong 90% of the time. Why? It's not a matter of poor judgement. Rather, it's a matter of judgement where judgement isn't needed. You mistake practical behavior for emotional behavior or visa versa, or you try to infer the goals of my actions. But this type of mistake is easy to prevent...

So here's the tip from an INTP: In general, don't try to infer our goals (We, or at least I, hate that.) Why risk being wrong? Just ask (Tip from elementary school: No question is a stupid question!). So before "Usually when you do X it means Y and I've noticed you're doing X," try "Can you explain what lead you to start doing X again recently?". (If that doesn't work, then feel free to make a guess -- Doing so is a popular tactic in science, where someone will say something really stupid to explain something interesting, and suddenly the entire field is trying to come up with an intelligent explanation. More generally, though, it's an effective and very Machiavellian way to motivate truth seekers. The reason you shouldn't do this as a first resort is because it makes me want to stuff your mouths with tape then tape them shut, leaving the nasal passage open only because murder is wrong unless lives are at stake.)

That small adjustment can be a hard one for an INTJ, someone used to judging. But if you learn to manipulate your own focus, you will quickly learn how to avoid making judgemental leaps about the meaning of a behavior until they're useful, which should make it very easy to avoid sharing your judgemental leap with an INTP. Learning to manipulate your focus is tough, but it's also a uniquely human ability, and if you read up about CBT and the prefrontal cortex, you'll realize that it's entirely possible, even for INTJ's.

So there's tip one. Don't be careful to not let focus manipulation become your mantra...It really makes almost everything ridiculously easy. Seriously, once you get it right...I'm trying to figure out what could possibly limit an INTJ's achievements with this technique mastered, and I'm having a lot of trouble.

As for number three above...Yes, it's easier to deal with consistent people, as a rule. I've always given people dynamic models, because the static models most people try to form aren't useful when you're trying to understand how to motivate others to change their characters. But then, how many INTP's pursue changing others? After all, the illusion of a static character or a static set of rules about human change is very attractive to us...It took me three years of heavy study to wrap my head around the idea that any system for changing people will have to change as they do, and when I did, it took another three years to mature myself sufficiently to accept and adapt such a system. So no, dynamic characters are NOT an easy thing for INTP's to accept (which is also why most other INTP's have never even considered being politicians or actors. I feel special.)

Here's the thing. Statistically, we're bad at predicting our own feelings (Not just INTP's, but everybody.) So if an INTJ takes your suggestion and gives an INTP one of these static rules, then a deception has occurred. If the INTP ever figures out the truth (which is unlikely, as explained above, or at least extremely difficult,) he will be a better person for it. But if the INTP simply detects the lie, then you've insulted his competence as a people-reader (probably accurately.) And if the INTP never detects the lie, then...Well, you've perpetuated the most crippling deception an INTP can have.

That's all. I hope you found the above useful!
doglovvver on February 5th, 2011 01:46 am (UTC)
Re: Pretty accurate, but...
HI!!!!! you seem to be really smart!!!! and i was windering if you could help me. you see i know this AMAZZZZZZZING INTP BOYYYYYY!!!!!! HE'S SO SMARTTTTTTT AND HOTTTTTTT!!!!!! but....:'( after read your post, which didn't make sence sometimes just sayn, i'm worried... WHAT IF HE DOESN'T LIKE ME BECAUSE I'M AN INxJ!?!?!?!?!?! WHAT IF I'M MORE INTJ THAN INFJ!?!?!?!?!??! i don't want him to hate me. :'( *sniffle* you sound like you know alot of stuff LIKE A COLLEGE PRFESSOR!!! Would you help me college prfessor????? PLEASE!!!!!! could you tell me more! i would ever be so grateful to know how INTP people think! they confusle me.

OH I ALMOST FORGOT! i found this list of things that INTP men like! i was sooooooooo happy until i started to read it.... it sound like an awful lot of change on my part and none for him. that's not fair.... do you think i should conform to his standards? idk what to do i'm so lost.....*cries*

http://intjforum.com/showthread.php?t=10840 read the list in the first comment PLZ and tell me if it's good! :)
Re: Pretty accurate, but... - Jeremy McCandlish on February 5th, 2011 03:28 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Pretty accurate, but... - doglovvver on February 5th, 2011 01:44 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Pretty accurate, but... - Jeremy McCandlish on February 5th, 2011 02:25 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Pretty accurate, but... - doglovvver on February 5th, 2011 11:54 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Pretty accurate, but... - doglovvver on February 8th, 2011 07:52 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Pretty accurate, but... - malovich on February 9th, 2011 07:53 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Pretty accurate, but... - doglovvver on February 10th, 2011 01:47 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Pretty accurate, but... - doglovvver on February 10th, 2011 01:47 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Pretty accurate, but... - malovich on February 10th, 2011 05:54 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Pretty accurate, but... - malovich on February 10th, 2011 05:55 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Pretty accurate, but... - doglovvver on February 10th, 2011 10:34 pm (UTC) (Expand)
magnusbucephalus on August 11th, 2011 03:48 am (UTC)
I am intp: rather extreme introvert, anti-social, math and logic fiend. interesting analysis. yes, am frequently off visiting the cows....;) Where else would I be?

my oldest and my dearest net friend is intj.