Top.Mail.Ru
? ?
 
 
17 December 2007 @ 10:56 pm
Discussion Series #15: Teaching INTJs  
Woah, this is timely. The topic I proposed back in September was "Teaching INTJs: what did you wish your instructors knew about how you learn best?" As it happens, I just more-or-less finished my (counts) 10th semester of graduate school (as a student) and have been reflecting on pretty much exactly this topic in preparation for writing my course evaluations. So what say I go first.

But wait! First I have to digress with a paradigmatic meta commentary. I think it's in the comm rules. If you don't float up an abstraction layer or two, they make you give back your INTJ card.

How about this: Teaching and learning are more than what happens in classrooms, and all too often discussions of "teaching" and "learning" wind up contracting down to a discussion of mere schooling. I think discussing learning and teaching in classroom setting is important, but but lets not forget all the great breadth of what constitutes teaching and learning. The one-on-one formal pedagogy of a music lesson is also teaching and (hopefully) learning. The "show me how to do this" of a in-person help-desk support request is learning and (hopefully) teaching. The "tell me how things are done here so I can help you make it less fubared" is also a form of teaching and learning.

To the extent we focus, in this discussion, let's focus on all the forms of "If you think you're going to teach me something, here's what I wish you would know about how to do that most effectively and painlessly for everyone involved."


Teaching and learning might reasonably be compared to ballroom dancing (even when there's lots of people involved): it helps to have some idea of who is leading. I admittedly don't know if this is also true of ballroom dancing, but in education, either the teacher or the pupil can lead.

One of the big differences about me, as a student, and I expect this is an INTJish thing, is that when I look around at my peers, most of them seem to be very passive learners, who expect (or at least behave as if they expect) to open up their heads and have education poured into it. They evidently expect the instructor to lead the dance of education. I can totally do that, too. But I, apparently unlike most of my peers, am totally comfortable leading as the student. I actually prefer it to anything other than really great leadership from the teacher.

This means that a mode of "teaching" that really works for me is that you just answer my questions. You let me drive. I don't expect you to be totally passive; I expect you to say things like, "That question doesn't make any sense because it presupposes Blah, which is incorrect." And, frankly, at times I'm going to come up with these vasty big-picture overview questions which amount to "So in 2500 words or less, summarize this topic about which people write PhD dissertations", so it's not like you won't be working hard. And I have a deal with the Devil that every time someone says, "Uh, hmm, gee, that's a good question", I get to live two years longer. (If you want to be on my invite list for my Y10k party, just ask; I'm tentatively planning on booking a hall near Tranquility Base if I'm in-system.)

This can be a bit of a problem in a classroom environment, where, unless I'm being on my super bestest best behavior, I can hijack your class in an eyeblink. And I don't even mean to do it, I'll just muse something aloud like, "Gee, that sounds like what Jung said about function differentiation..." and we're off and running.

If you don't want me to hijack your class, you can just say so. (I have games on my palm pilot! I can check out if necessary.) Really, this comes down to making your expectations known to me.

And for some reason, a lot of professors in classroom environments (well, at this school) seem to be allergic to spelling out their expectations in some way or another. For some, I think it's pretty clearly a resistance to making firm statements. I had one prof who was, AFAICT, a flaming ENFP. He would sooner cut off his own arm than make a plan in advance or specify deadlines. He had deadlines, of course; there comes a point where the school requires him to submit our grades, so he wanted our assignments in early enough that, you know, he could read and grade them all. Telling us what the deadlines were.... he didn't want to structure our experience that much. Other professors don't have that hang-up, but seem to have suspicions that somehow by telling us what length they want us to write to or what size font to use, they will be facilitating our cheating on the assignment. Still others don't have those issues, but feel that if they tell us too much about what the assignment actually is, we "won't think outside the box".

Speaking for myself -- and perhaps for you guys too, I dunno -- I'm pretty sure you, the instructor, need to be far, far more concerned with bringing my attention to where the box is than worrying whether I will be thinking outside it. I'm a pretty amazingly divergent thinker. I have a lot of trouble keeping track of just where I left the box. In fact, if you want what I do to have any relationship, whatsoever with the box? You had better present me with a treasure map to the box. In writing.

Because -- really -- I'm pretty box-finding impaired. Maybe it's like dyslexia. We can call it "dyspuxia". What this means is I cannot count the number of times I have turned in fabulously well done assignments which turned out to be completely not what the instructor had in mind. But the instructor will allow as how, yes, nothing in the assignment as given actually ruled out what I had done.

More on accommodating my dyspuxia, below. To return to the point at hand: I'm not actually some mad iconoclast rebel-without-a-cause, ODD trouble-maker*, I'm actually completely willing to go along with your reasonable requests. Sure, I might think they're dumb, but I won't say so; I'm here to get an education, not teach you to teach. If you let me know how you want questions, class discussion, assignments, whatever handled, dude, I'm completely happy to do it however you like. I mean, barring really outrageous stuff (e.g. will not write paper in my own blood.) But I haven't got any particular need to do it my way. It's just that if you don't make it really plain to me what your way is, I might not figure it out on my own, and then I'll wind up defaulting to my way, and one or the other or both of us might be really unhappy with that.

(* They're down the hall.)

Actually, I'm not merely easy going about your pedagogical requests: I can be a downright goody-two shoes about them, which, strangely, a lot of instructors seem ill prepared for. I think this comes from my background in music and theater, in which being asked to do all sorts of weird, if not down-right embarrassing, things for educational purposes was an every day occurrence. The instruction of music is often (and for good reason) "Wax on, wax off*" instruction. [* If you don't know where that's going.] If you propose to me that you can teach me best by letting you lead, indeed, by letting you lead to the extent that I'm simply blindly following a program of instruction you understand but which is completely impenetrable to me upfront... I can totally do that. You will find me freakishly capable of operating in that mode. Where other students piss and moan, and have to be coaxed along, I'll just do what I'm told.

Which means you had better not indulge in hyperbole.

Look, an instructor in historical counterpoint once said, "I really don't think someone can write in a historical style unless they were to immerse themselves in the music of the period, and listen to nothing else for a year."

That seemed reasonable to me, so I did.

I later found out he didn't expect to be taken literally, but, hey, I think it kinda worked, so I'm a satisfied customer.

So I can do wax on, wax off style learning. Here's the thing, though: you have to actually be willing to take that level of responsibility.

Here's what wax on, wax off isn't. It isn't just expecting me not to ask questions. If you want me not to ask questions, it had better be because you've figured out a course of study which you have reason to believe will actually work.

One thing that drives me up a wall -- and now I not just referring to formal instruction -- is when I ask a question, and get a prepared recital that answers... some other question. I'm not talking about misunderstanding the question. I'm talking about a behavior I've observed in coworkers, where when I'll ask, "How does the Ferblungit module handle array input?" and the person asked will recite everything they know about the Ferblungit module, and never mention input handling -- arrays or otherwise -- at all. And it will be the whole long monologue, and they get offended if you interrupt and ask, "Yes, but what about handling array input?" It's much like having the manual read to you; and if the answer were in there, I would have found it when I RTFMed, which is why I'm asking. I actually sort of expect this failure to engage with my actual question when I ask questions in email, because apparently a lot of people aren't so good a reading comprehension, but I can think of three stunning examples in face-to-face communication.

Which brings me to another point: Really, I'd like it in writing. Particularly your expectations and that map to the box. While I love discussion and, heck, as a musician I'm all about auditory information, really, I'd like the complex stuff written down. And I love charts and graphs. Apparently normal people have trouble with graphs; for me, they are some of the most lucid forms of explanation.

It's funny, perhaps, in that I have no visual imagination to speak of. My ability to visualize is close to non-existent. But perhaps that's why I need it written down -- it's not like I'm going to reconstruct it to be a picture in my head from the data.

Remembering my dispuxia, considering how much trouble I have keeping track of the box, it really helps not to add basic communication snafus into the instructional chain. If you give me oral instructions and I write them down, Hermes only knows what I'll actually do for the assignment.

Note: I have no such difficulties in the work place. Go fig. Of course, nobody is trying to play little, "I don't want to tell you too much because then you won't be creative enough", games in the work place; maybe that has something to do with it.

Speaking of writing: I have a concision problem. In case it wasn't manifestly evident by now. Actually, it's not a concision problem, per se. I'm pretty expeditious about getting my ideas across. I don't belabor them. (Heck, I hate repeating myself.) No, the problem is that I get these big, fat ideas, and try to cram them into little tiny assignments. Or more properly, I get assignments like, "Discuss Blah", and, well, I gather from instructors' reactions that from their perspective, it's like that bit in Hitchhiker's about the man who was overdosed with truth serum and told to tell "The truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth"... so did. It seems there is no topic so particular, so specific, so limited, that when I turn my attention to it, it doesn't erupt into a mighty 20+ page discourse. Not counting bibliography. Hera help you if I actually get into the research.

Or looked at it another way, I'm both very thoughtful and highly opinionated, and those to things together will mean never having to say, "Gee, I don't know what to say on this topic."

I have been finding written assignments a fabulous way to learn a subject. I'm pretty sure that's not how most people experience them. I surmise my peers and profs see them as ways to demonstrate one's learning -- indeed a recent prof of mine referred to the final paper as a "proof of learning". My classmates often seem to me to be approaching their written assignments with the attitude of "what is the minimum amount of work I can do here to get my minimum acceptable grade". No disparagement meant; I do plenty of assignments like that, myself and approve of crossing the swamp without getting seduced into alligator wrestling. But where papers are concerned, that seems to me to be missing one of the great educational opportunities available to one, and I'm trying to scoop up as much education as I can get as I pass through grad school. So I approach written assignments from the perspective of, "What can I learn here?"

Typically, when invited to pick a topic, I'll use the opportunity to investigate something I think I'll benefit by knowing. If I do choose something which is already in an area of strength, I'll take the occasion to deepen my knowledge or to work out my thoughts on a topic more clearly.

Concomitantly:

1) I care a lot about the educational affordances of the assignment. But if you can't think of a good, educational assignment, that's OK, I can pick one for us.

2) I'd be delighted to get thoughtful feedback, but really, if you're busy, just slap a grade on there and let me know how well or not I met expectations. The educational part of the exercise was the research I did in preparing it. I'm not writing it to submit my thinking to you for you to evaluate whether or not I got it right. Of course, if you want to engage me on the level of content, that's great.

3) Unless you have a PhD in English, or I have hired you as a proof reader, or it is in fact a writing class, don't tangle with me on issues of English usage and style. Don't go there. I can take you. You have better things to do. I promise to use a spell-checker if you promise not to get into arguments about split infinitives, terminal prepositions, comma usage or citation format. I have a copy of the official APA style guide and I'm not afraid to use it.

Finally, one important other thing to know is this:

I'm bad at conclusions and often submit things right up against the deadline.
 
 
 
Katie the Blue Kitten: House - Arrogance has to be earnedkatayla on December 18th, 2007 06:32 am (UTC)
This is a timely topic for me, too, because I've found myself--after lots of bad and just "okay" experiences--in a GREAT learning environment (and I'll pimp my college, Evergreen State College, which I've done here before). Instead of grades, we get written evaluations, and credit. Which I've found to be a much better way of summing up a quarter's worth of work.

The amount of learning you do is really up to you. In the class I just finished, you could miss 1/3 of the classes and 1/3 of the work before losing any credit. So it's very easy to slide by and not do any real work at all. But if you want to learn, than you can learn ever so much. And if you do, then the professors take notice of you and encourage it (which I haven't experienced elsewhere). And this is just perfect for me. I don't need hand-holding from the teacher and I'm going to do the work anyway, but it's been amazing to have someone actually notice.

We also have weekly seminars and those have been fantastic! We've had great discussions that have got me thinking. (Because if I'm going to learn something, it better make me think!)

So, I guess I benefit from a untraditional style of education, where the learning is largely up to the student.
Benhslayer on December 18th, 2007 03:04 pm (UTC)
I definitely learn best when I can direct it. In my main area of expertise (and interest), computers, I can take that to an even greater degree than being able to ask questions of a teacher, and learn by doing. For example, if I want to learn a new programming language, I don't take a class or buy an instructional book. I get a reference book on the subject to keep handy for those niggling details, and just start messing around with it. I majored in computer science in college, but what I learned there is a drop in the bucket compared to what I've taught myself over the years.

Obviously this doesn't work for everything. Another big interest of mine is particle physics, and those aren't really backyard experiments. But there, too, I'd rather read up on my own and ask questions of my friend with a PhD in cosmology (which is close enough that he can answer my level of questions) than take a class.

I haven't done enough teaching to really say how I work better there. Usually it's just someone asking how to perform a very specific task on their computer, which ends up just being a list of steps. For example, I get lots of, "How do I do ___ in Excel," but I've never gotten, "Teach me how to use Excel," where one of us would have to form a whole strategy as far as what order to go through things, etc, etc. I'm tempted to say I'd do best if the pupil were in charge, just because I'm not sure where to begin laying out a lesson plan. That may just be my inexperience, though.
Katie the Blue Kitten: Grey's Anatomy - Leave the room for no rkatayla on December 18th, 2007 07:52 pm (UTC)
Yeah. Computer science is what I'm doing now and I really appreciate that independent aspect of it. A lot of my classmates struggle with that, but, for me, it works really well to work on my own. I don't need a lecture about what I just read in the book.
Her Eminence the Very Viscountess: hamleting by roseandmaskbreathingbooks on December 18th, 2007 03:57 pm (UTC)
Like oil_essenziali, I hate frequent student-led discussions. I'm paying tuition to learn how to think and to learn about specific subjects. Listening to my equally ignorant classmates ramble rarely accomplishes either. I want the professor to show me the breadth of the subject so that I can decide what parts of it interest me for further independent study. Too often I see profs spending 5 minutes coaxing "independent" "original" thoughts out of students when they could simply say those thoughts themselves in a few seconds. That may help those few students learn better, but it's a disservice to the rest of the class, especially the introverts.

I'm an incurably lazy procrastinator, so I like being forced to learn subjects I've chosen to deadlines. I prefer multiple-choice tests, but papers are all right provided the professor gives clear instructions and some sort of framework. I won't necessarily use it, but my mind needs something to play with.

It's frustrating when I ask a question and the instructor (job or classroom) just hears the keywords and gives the standard answer to them. I end up having to repeat the question several times before they understand that yes, I understood the big picture, but I wondered about this particular piece.
Loki: Wordtricstmr on December 18th, 2007 04:14 pm (UTC)
So...
... siderea.. tell us how you feel... ;)

In response to your overall discourse.. I'm wondering if the context of your education... no.. I'm pretty sure actually.. that the context of your educational experiences dramatically interacted with your learning expriences..

As you mention above.. your background was in the arts (music and theater) and I would assume that a good chunk of your educational experience involved the arts and the more fluid teaching/learning experiences that I've noticed accompanying such areas.

I only bring this up because I found myself coming up with a continuous string of "hmmm. that's nothing like what I experienced.." even if I also often found myself in agreement with a lot of your conclusions in response to the situations you describe...

My thought was that I was educated in a very different context.. I've always been involved in super-math/science geekdom from early on (around 6th grade or so.. or even earlier. since I went to Montessori preschool and already gravitated towards math and geography activities at that ime..) and throughout high-school(math team, AP science and math tracks) and college(engineering).. and in that context I found myself in far more of a "STJ" type environment overall..

In these cases.. I never had the problem of expectations not being "spelled out..".. they were usually spelled out quite often and usually clearly..
Instead.. the bigger problem seemed to be when someone displayed marked creativity or any impatience with doing stuff the "way it should be done.."

Not that I had such problems.. I could mimic the requirements and learned to reserve creative approaches for those teachers who did not fit this mold..

And, I must admit.. I did have a number of such opportunities.. I feel lucky that I had many excellent teachers who pretty much created the perfect learning environment from my perspective.. the majority of these were in High School.. where I had super excellent Math Teachers.. a few good history instructors... a totally fabulous physics teacher and a kind and patient chemistry teacher.. and remarkably good English teachers (even though at the time, I told myself that I hated English..) In college, I also had some good engineering instructors--including the smartest man I've ever met--who pushed us really to learn deeper things by pushing us to look underneath what was presented to understand deeper principles of design and to grok underlying physical laws in an intuitive fashion..

Anyway.. that's my $02 for now..

Oh.. one last thing.. I never wont for conclusions and usually prefer to finish my work a good while before the deadlines.. In fact.. I usually prefer to start far enough ahead so that I can work out the conlcusions in advance--in the planning analysis stage--before I then go about creating the presentation of my work.. Time pressure--while I can handle it--always annoys me and makes me unhappy with my final work.. It gives me the feeling that what I'm presenting is sloppy and may--although prolly will--not work.. which, of course, is the most horrible thing possible..
Sidereasiderea on December 18th, 2007 06:30 pm (UTC)
Re: So...
Whoa there cowboy! One of my backgrounds is music. Vanishingly little of it in classrooms, though.

Most of my classroom experience before grad school was in STEM -- engineering major at a famous INTJish school -- and you're quite right that one gets clearer instructions in STEM.

Nevertheless all my most spectacular examples of dyspuxia have been in computer science classes, in programming assignments.

Professionally, I'm a computer programmer, and may you take allusions to coworkers as being among techies, though that isn't entirely true: one striking example came from interacting w/ the HR dept.

Presently I'm studying in a "social science".

Of course my commentary is shaped by my experience -- that's what experience is for. You seem to be... well, honestly, insinuating best reflects the tone I'm hearing... that the experience from which I speak is inadequate. That may well be so -- experience is often inadequate -- but it seems perhaps my experience is not as limited as you assumed.

Would you do me a favor? In the future, would you so be so kind as to not couch your own, quite interesting, observations about your own experience in the rhetorical formula of a dichotomy against assumptions about me? Surely I write quite enough you can find something I did say to contrast with, if you're so inclined. Seems silly that an interesting discussion about educational experiences should need to be diverted to tedious correction of assumptions about me when I'm not even the topic of the discussion. Thanks!

Edited at 2007-12-18 06:32 pm (UTC)
Loki: find x!tricstmr on December 18th, 2007 06:47 pm (UTC)
I beg your pardon...
.. if I came across as insinuating anything.. that was definitely not my intention in the slightest..

.. and I especially don't want you to think that my talk about context or anything else was meant to imply that your experience was in any way inadequate.. Far from it...

I don't generally assume..(nor do I find it a particularly smart way to approach such a discussion).. that anyone's experience is "inadequate" for that would imply some sort of objective "standard" of appropriate experience for this kind of discussion.. whereby such a standard would make assumptions about what is the right kind of experience..

.. and I think that's just horseshit.

Experience is experience.. and it is there to shape our lives--as you quite beautifully state.

If anything.. I was merely making a tentative observation of my own impressions from reading your commentary (somewhat quickly, as I was multi-tasking other work things at the same time).. and going by the information that you had presented to use as a starting off point for some of my own thoughts.

I'm sorry if this came across as antagonistic.. 'Twas not meant to be so in any way..

Two last points..
a) I will add some more later.. at the time, I only had time for that response.. and it was the first thing that came to mind....
b) To add a bit more to my defense.. I did know that you were in the social sciences presently--we've conversed before and if I remember correctly, you're in psychology.. (I'm in History of Technology/science at the moment after engineering.. so I'm another tech world individual moving into a field that is more along the humanities/social science border...) I did not know--or did not remember--that your background was in engineering. In any case.. I sincerely did not mean to imply anything negative by my comments, and apologize if they came across in such a manner.

More of my own thoughts a bit later after I get some grading done.. :)
Sidereasiderea on December 18th, 2007 07:57 pm (UTC)
Re: I beg your pardon...
All is forgiven, I thank you heartily for your apology. You are a classy being.
Loki: spoon!tricstmr on December 18th, 2007 08:34 pm (UTC)
absolutely no problem..
.. I found your post quite interesting(as I have your previous ones..) and the last thing I wanted to do was come across as a snide know-it-all...(and I know how easy that can come happen in these kinds of forums..despite our general INTJ capabilities.. ;) )

In any case.. I'll be posting more within the hour, i hope.. :)
Loki: find x!tricstmr on December 18th, 2007 09:31 pm (UTC)
more directed thoughts..
Sticking to the question posed: To the extent we focus, in this discussion, let's focus on all the forms of "If you think you're going to teach me something, here's what I wish you would know about how to do that most effectively and painlessly for everyone involved."

Hmmm....

Reflecting back on my past.. I find it a bit hard to come to a nicely structured answer here.. overall, I think, because I appear to be rather flexible when it comes to being taught. I've rarely had a school situation that i would describe as either torturesome or grossly ineffective.

Wait.. let me take that back. There was one instance of such a thing, and it brings me to point #1...

#1: Teaching better be effective and you better know what the hell you are talking about (or admit when you don't honestly..) or you will irritate the crap out of me..

The first time this ever really happened was in high school, sophomore year, when I had a truly incompetent history teacher. I knew more than he did and ended up teaching a good chunk of the class. he also, at the end of the class, initially gave me a B for the second semester, until I asked to see my exam and my grades, and then he quickly said it was a mistaken grade.

#2: Come to think about it.. and perhaps obliquely linking to siderea's story above.. the one time where I found university education to be somewhat lacking was while I was in Germany. Basically, German university education in the liberal arts like history consisted of students going to lectures they found interesting and taking a certain number of seminar like courses. In the seminar courses, a paper was usually the outcome (along with some work for class), but in the lectures, nothing was required at all. You showed up and listened or didn't. No one cared.

While this is all very hippie like and grand for auto-didacts.. I found this kind of structure less accomodating. Basically.. I found myself wanting to be pushed a bit more.. wanted to think that I could "interact" a bit more with the professor's mind by having him test us on what he thought was important, and then we could try to interat with his by making our own arguments..

but that was not the case.

#3. i like homework sets. I like to work on problems alone or in groups where I can put my mind through a set of operations to build up it's mental endurance, so to speak.. One of the best learning experiences in my life was in my Chem-Phys honors (and then AP) classes in high school. Especially in the Physics section, we had a problem notebook that we had to turn in at each test.. where we had to solve various problems. These problems were hard and it often became a social thing out of class to get together and have a "problem notebook cram session" the night before the tests... In these instances.. I usually had solved my problems beforehand (or at least most of them) and liked to spend the time either helping others--thus furthering my own knowledge according to the dictum of my mother that said you don't really know a subject unless you can teach it to someone else--or trying to work through those problems I didn't completely understand myself.

Thus.. working outside of class with others is perhaps my most favored form of learning... class is important--and my Chem-Phys classes were awesome--filled with a truly great physics teacher--but more important was the way that the teacher got us to work together on the tasks he assigned us...

and that's all for now.. again.. I have to run off.. I'll try to add more later..
Luna: contemplative Howlunkickablekitty on December 19th, 2007 04:52 am (UTC)
My thoughts are scattered. I probably wandered in and out of the topic. That's okay, though.

I learn in a few ways. If I'm motivated, I love to direct my learning (I'll seriously go ahead of stuff and just sit and relax for a couple months). Otherwise... direct it for me, but only if you do it right.

1: Auditory learning. The teacher has to know what they're talking about, and they have to be a good speaker. This isn't discrimination. I just honestly cannot learn orally if they can't speak well. (And this is coming from a stutterer!)

2: Mindnumbing learning. Yeah, those packets where you basically copy from the textbook? If I can be bothered to do them (really doesn't engage my brain at all), I'll remember everything in them.

3: Reading things. I won't pick up anything if I read the textbook. However, if you have a not-so-boring book about it... I'm good. I'll understand the main idea, I'll get the main details, and, hence, most likely will pass rather well.

I absolutely cannot stand horrible class discussions. Example: My current English teacher is great... as a person. He doesn't know how to teach, though. And his discussions? Sorry, but I am not going to wait 20 minutes for a very simple idea to be guessed in the class. (Yeah, guessed. He doesn't know how to properly put things, and hence people just guess to get the "discussion" over with. Sorry, but they're incapable of getting it right if you do that.)

The only time I'll really direct something in the class is if I know the teacher is incompetent of expressing something, the majority of the class isn't getting it, and I have an easier and more understandable way of saying it. I'll raise my hand and phrase it as, "Oh, so that sort of means that 'blahblahblah,'" so the teacher isn't offended. Some teachers catch on to the real intentions ("you're incapable of teaching this, so I'm doing it subtly to help move things along"). Most don't.

I leave everything to the deadline. Actually, sometimes I'll wait until I find the creative motivation to do something, if I find it requires it. If that means handing it in a week late, so be it. (I forgot to reply to that one post, but "selectively ambitious" is a great way to put it.) Otherwise, things are done on time and well enough to get the grade I want. If I don't care (and it's pointless to do), I'll fail, and I'm okay with that--as long as I'm consciously making the decision. Sometimes, there are more important things.
hiddenimmortal on December 19th, 2007 10:32 pm (UTC)
schooling and i don't mix well. when i am sitting there in a desk listening to the teacher blah blah blah about some nonsense and the other students inquire about things i took to be blatantly obvious, i tend to allow my mind to wander to many different places and spend most of the time in that desk mentally detached from that classroom. i was able to find new ways of getting things done instead of just doing it "how it should" be done but had to stick to how it "should" be done anyway which bothered me.
i also have very intense dreams every night so it takes a few hours in the morning after waking for me to mentally be there. my boyfriend on observing this didn't like the idea of me driving the kid to school in the morning until he found that physical tasks i am fine with in that state of grogginess it's the mental ones that i have trouble with. obviously waking up to attend a class did not result in good grades and later on resulted in poor attendance.
when handed a textbook and told to read it later on my own time was when i learned the most outside of one on one instruction. i learn best when i figure things out for myself.
Princess of the Nightnight_princess on December 20th, 2007 03:01 am (UTC)
Now that I have the freedom to make my own decisions and the resources to do whatever I want, I've found that I'm just not good at learning from classes and monologue lectures. I think I learn best in a "pull" context. If I'm interested, I will keep learning about the topic from pretty much anything and anywhere: a hawk flying overhead might suddenly give me insight into computer algorithms. Conversely, if I'm not interested, anything people try to teach me is likely to be associated with and translated into something I'm interested in: the Bio classes I took during college also helped me in computer algorithms and taught me absolutely nothing about biology.

I got excellent grades during high school, but I don't think that has anything to do with learning. There's a huge difference between learning and regurgitating, and I guess I can regurgitate rather well if I'm severely restricted from doing anything more interesting. Looking back on what I was supposed to have been taught during high school, I have to admit that, in spite of having very good grades, I learned very close to nothing. They pushed information in, and I tossed it back up on cue. Somehow, they thought my scores meant that they did their job, but in retrospect, I have no evidence that anything got digested. (Actually, the chunks I spewed back up looked a lot like what got pushed in, so wouldn't that be evidence supporting the idea that nothing got digested?) I don't think I really started learning anything until after I stopped going to classes (which happened within a month of starting college).

Stretching the analogy, I think I'd go as far as to say that learning and regurgitating seem to be at odds with each other for me. In retrospect, I guess going through enough thought processes required to write an essay about the topic or discuss things online does help me learn, but such activities seem to have a very detrimental on my ability to accurately regurgitate and thus, if I were taking classes, they would result in lower grades. On the other side, being given specific parameters about what I'm supposed to cough up seems to also interfere with true learning. I guess I'm probably more the type of student that people are trying to target when they withhold information about what they want in an attempt to encourage true thought: if they tell me exactly what they want me to regurgitate, I'll put in the minimal amount of effort and regurgitate the bare minimum of what they want. On the other hand, it's just a futile effort, and they should just give up: nothing they do is going to help. The fact that I'm in a class at all predisposes me to regurgitating rather than learning, so they might as well tell me what they want regurgitated and make it easier on everybody. If I really wanted to learn, I'd tell them what I need from them in a more directed and personal context.

I also learn very well via negative examples. I do not seek to be contradictory or different, but it happens by itself very easily and naturally for me, and I've found that I can take advantage of it in terms of learning. I think the Internet is actually my best "teacher" in terms of "true learning" because so much of the information is just so bad and needs so much improvement. Misinformation just naturally inundates me with a lot of energy and motivation to seek the truth.
Princess of the Nightnight_princess on December 20th, 2007 03:01 am (UTC)
So, back to the question... For me, since motivation is such a huge factor in my learning process, I think it's useful break "teachers" into two roles: motivating teachers and reference teachers. I have no advice for my motivating teachers. My conscious mind is convinced that people will not succeed by putting conscious effort into convincing me to learn a topic. My subconscious mind probably knows better, and I suspect some teachers knew how to tap into it, but I don't consciously have good advice there. For my reference teachers, I want to tell them to get to the point and answer my questions as straightforwardly as possible to the best of their ability. (I know it can be difficult to do because my questions sometimes include, "What questions would it be useful for me to ask?") If the answer is too short, I can always ask for further explanation. If the answer is a huge, long, roundabout story with lots of background and tangents, I might be entertained, but it would probably also blow my budding thought structures to tiny fragments in the process, and I need them intact to be able to retain and use what I'm trying to learn.
Princess of the Nightnight_princess on December 20th, 2007 04:32 am (UTC)
> I'd tell them what I need from them in a more directed and personal context.

I meant something closer to "one on one" rather than "personal".

> I also learn very well via negative examples.

I didn't specifically mean "examples" there either, although "examples" is a subset of what I meant. I tend to learn best when things just don't fit. I don't learn as well when teachers fit things together for me. When that happens, I tend to just regurgitate. I learn best when I figure out how to break concepts, and I'm most motivated to learn when concepts are broken. I think that the reason I'm still into these MBTI groups is because the concepts are just that broken.
Camilla Foxcfox on December 20th, 2007 03:17 am (UTC)
I had assumed that my ability to visualize was part and parcel with the preference for having things written down, and the love of graphs. It's interesting that you have the latter without the former.

I'm not good with auditory information; while my auditory acuity and pitch discrimination are perfectly fine, I've got some glaring firmware bugs (approximately "can't understand you over a cell phone" and "can hear much more of the music if someone else taps their foot"). I had noticed that I have a lot of trouble staying on track if I'm asked a question (rather than emailed a question) and was blaming buggy audio processing.
freedom1776freedom1776 on December 20th, 2007 09:30 pm (UTC)
I may go on and off topic, and I skimmed the long part of the original post, so I may have missed or misunderstood stuff.

Like many here, I didn't like class discussions. I was usually sitting there, bored out my mind, wondering how everyone else couldn't understand things that were so simple and obvious. Thankfully, only one teacher insisted on running class that way.

Unlike most here, I actually like listening to my professors because they generally knew how to communicate information well. Of course, the ones that read out of the textbook meant that I was sitting there, only paying attention so I would pass the test. With those teachers, I usually started daydreaming or writing. And I've noticed that many of my favorite teachers are the ones that most kids hated just because they were challenging, whether with the assignments or the way they made you think about things.

Another thing that I disliked was group work. Let's just say I usually did 90% of the work, but everyone got the same grade. It got to the point where, in my freshmen year of college, a professor was giving out assignments and said that we'd be working either in pairs or individually, and started off by saying, "[My name] and x," I interuptted and asked if I could work alone. Thankfully, he said yes. (This was the same professor that taught by reading out of the book.) On the other hand, my extraverted father who teaches high school refuses to assign group projects for the same reason that I hated doing them! The only time group work wasn't really bad was when the professor said everyone would be graded individually, and he accomplished it by telling everyone in the group to individually write down what they and the others in the group did, thereby double-checking things.

Study groups were also a pain. If I need to work extra on something, I'd rather do it individually where I could ask questions and not look stupid in front of others. I'd rather much stay quiet in groups rather than be wrong. This is compounded when the groups are mandatory (as they were for my precalculus class), where no one really knew what was going on because the teacher wasn't that good. Thankfully, I avoided non-mandatory ones. But the one example of non-INTJness really makes me shake my head. The professor had basically given us the general categories of the exam and we had to do two or three. Everyone was making plans to meet up and go over all five or six categories that she gave us when the professor had specifically said that all would be on the test. Therefore, I went off and focused on three, and looking at a fourth just in case. Exam day, I was one of the first done because I was able to focus on the questions I had studied, instead of wasting time looking at all of them.

When I'm interested in something, I tend to learn best on my own, or if there's someone I can ask questions to. I'll check out books, read everything I can find, and just basically learn until I get tired of the subject or satisfy my curiousity.

The advice I have for those teaching me is:
~ give me things to read, and let me watch you do it once or twice. From there, I'll generally be fine.
~ I remember what I read, especially if I'm interested in it. Don't assume I didn't do the reading, because I mostly likely did. Furthermore, assume I understood it.
~ If I'm asking questions, it means I don't understand. If I'm quiet, keep on going. I'll interupt if I need to.
~ Don't repeat yourself. I heard and understood you the first time. See above for response to not understanding.
~ If you want me to do an assignment, give me clear due dates and directions. And then leave me alone. I don't need meetings to check my progress.
~ I'll learn things on my own that may or may not be related to the material you're teaching. If it is related, it just means I'm interested in the subject, not that I'm trying to prove you wrong.
~ Get to the point fast. I don't like roundabout explanations or answers.
Princess of the Nightnight_princess on December 20th, 2007 11:31 pm (UTC)
> then leave me alone. I don't need meetings to check my progress.

No kidding. When people are sitting in progress meetings, they're not making any progress. More progress meetings directly translate to less progress. Some people just don't seem to understand this, and their reaction to too little progress being made seems to be to call more progress meetings, thereby making the situation even worse.

> But the one example of non-INTJness really makes me shake my head. The professor had basically given us the general categories of the exam and we had to do two or three. Everyone was making plans to meet up and go over all five or six categories that she gave us when the professor had specifically said that all would be on the test. Therefore, I went off and focused on three, and looking at a fourth just in case. Exam day, I was one of the first done because I was able to focus on the questions I had studied, instead of wasting time looking at all of them.

I see this as another example of the idea that getting good grades is "regurgitating" and not really "learning". A person truly interested in understanding the subject should want to go over all the topics just for the sake of learning them, regardless of what will be on the test or not. However, efficiently getting good grades is often at odds with true learning.
freedom1776freedom1776 on December 21st, 2007 04:14 pm (UTC)
However, efficiently getting good grades is often at odds with true learning.

Exactly! I took many classes because I wanted to learn something, but regurgitation is the name of the game. I can honestly say I've learned a lot more about "real life" and topics I'm interested in from the fiction books (scifi and fantasy) I've read than anything school forced me to learn. I've spent hours looking things up online that aren't related to anything I've learned in school, or are things that I've come across that were barely mentioned, and I wanted to know more.

But even with the regurgitation, I still learn. I can't not. If I don't know it, I want to know it since I'm insatiably curious about almost everything.
melissaherwonderfulday on December 22nd, 2007 08:54 am (UTC)
Some of my favorite classes in college were in the 50+ student classroom/auditoriums and straight lecture (no powerpoint, just writing on the board if necessary). Perhaps I lucked out in that my professors for those classes were really smart and passionate about what they were teaching (as opposed to a TA teaching the class).

I only joined one study group (for a political science class) and my time in that study group ranks up in the top 5 most amazing experiences I had in college. The 5 of us sat together in class and were always early and we all kind of clicked as friends. For any other class and with anyone else, I would never meet with others outside of class to study - and I never did. We just had so much fun together in the context of that study group. One of the girls in the group and I became best friends (and she's an ESFP).

Interestingly, most of the tests for those classes had a similar format. There may have been a multiple choice component, but there was always a written section and the questions were like, "Using [Researcher's Name]'s organizational model of organized crime, explain how [event - Enron, Love Canal, Challenger disaster, whatever example] is an example of organized crime." (To use one example from an organized crime - could you tell? - class.)

So, since I had to explain the implications of what I've been taught, it felt less like regurgitating definitions. "Define [word], what are the 5 components of X, etc.."

I loathed "you pick the topic you want to write about" essays for English class.

For the most part I was quiet in class (unless participation was part of the grade - oh, how I hated that) and only a handful of times did I ask a professor to repeat a concept that didn't quite catch the first time. I hated group work and, like some previous posters, ended up doing most of the work because I didn't trust the other members to do it right (or do it well) and I'd be damned if my grade was going to suffer because of their lack of effort.

But yeah... mostly I wanted a professor who said, "Welcome to Class, this is what we're going to learn and this is how you'll be tested. I want you to connect these concepts using those methods, how you choose to apply them is up to you." Equal parts structure, equal parts freedom.

I was just thinking the other day how much I love graphs and charts (and flow charts).

You've all probably been to Indexed, but if you haven't, it's a great little blog with graphs and charts about life...



Some of these comments remind me of something a classmate of mine once said about why he was always 5 minutes late to class. "The first five minutes of class are spent going over what happened in the last class and I know what happened because I was there."

I can appreciate that... but I could never be late to class.
Monica: avatarcellio on December 24th, 2007 03:22 am (UTC)
My experiences have been very similar to yours. In particular, I find written assignments helpful, invigorating, and excellent opportunities for learning. The mere requirement to articulate a cogent analysis or opinion can teach me a lot. I do want the feedback (it's part of what I pay tuition for), but I understand that it will not always be forthcoming, and I don't want the instructor to "just write comments" out of obligation. If he doesn't actually have anything to say, fine -- but don't pretend. (This is not, by the way, something I feel so strongly about among classmates or casual readers. Dunno why.)

I share your comfort with leading and surprise at how passive most fellow students tend to be. They're just here to get their three credits and move on? How sad; please get out of my way so I can learn something. I have to consciously regulate my asking of questions and making of comments to not take over; that said, if the instructor will make his expectations known, I, like you, can roll with that. It's the absence of stated expectations that gets me; I figure in that case my assumptions are as valid as anyone else's, and mine include support for the kinds of questions I ask. :-)
nancylebov on December 25th, 2007 03:10 am (UTC)
So, what happens with an intj who isn't especially bright?